U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Suspends SpaceX’s Application to Expand Boca Chica Launch Facility
by Douglas Messier
Managing Editor
Elon Musk’s controversial plan to launch SpaceX’s Super Heavy/Starship system from Boca Chica, Texas has hit another snag as the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has suspended review of the company’s application for an expansion of its Starbase spaceport. The reason: SpaceX’s failure to provide additional information requested from the company on May 21, 2021. The application can be revived if SpaceX provides the requested information.
The Corps of Engineers sent a letter to SpaceX dated March 7 that lists a number of deficiencies in the application. The overriding concern is that SpaceX eliminated alternative locations — Cape Canaveral in Florida and Vandenberg Space Force Base in California — without providing a thorough analysis of why those sites were not viable.
In February, however, Musk said during a presentation he gave at Boca Chica that if government approvals to launch Super Heavy/Starship from Boca Chica were seriously delayed, SpaceX would relocate operations to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center (KSC) in Florida. In fact, SpaceX has begun construction of production and launch facilities at KSC.
The Corps is evaluating how the expansion of SpaceX’s permit would affect 17.16 acres of land adjacent to SpaceX’s current footprint at Boca Chica. The expansion would involve the “addition of test, orbital, and landing pads, integration towers, associated infrastructure, stormwater management features and vehicle parking. The proposed expansion will impact 10.94 acres of mud flats, 5.94 acres of estuarine wetlands, and 0.28 acres of non-tidal wetlands,” according to the Corps’ project description.
The review is being done in conjunction with the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) programmatic environmental assessment (PEA) of SpaceX’s plan to expand the spaceport and launch Super Heavy/Starship vehicles from the location just north of the Mexican border. FAA originally planned to complete the PEA by the end of last December; however, the estimated completion date is now April 28.
In its March 7 letter, the Corps of Engineers said it didn’t buy SpaceX’s argument that Boca Chica is the only viable launch location because its close proximity to Super Heavy and Starship production facilities the company has already built.
“The siting criteria requiring use of the existing infrastructure (Criteria 9) eliminates, without any additional considerations, all alternatives not located in Boca Chica. SpaceX has indicated in the DPEA [draft programmatic environmental assessment] it is considering additional launch (which includes landing for suborbital missions) and reentry locations for the Starship/Super Heavy program beyond the Boca Chica Launch Site,” the letter said.
“The siting criteria definition requiring proximity to SpaceX’s existing Starship/Super Heavy production facilities in Boca Chica (Criteria 14) clearly states the Vandenburg and Cape Canaveral alternatives are not considered under this criterion but the document shows that Criteria 14 only eliminates one offsite alternative,” the document added.
The letter also said the close location of the production facility and launch pad violates another criteria stipulated in regulations.
“The geographic diversity (Criteria 13) states the launch site must be in a different place in order to diversify risk and operations. The criterion conflicts with the previous two criteria mentioned above and it eliminates from further consideration all on-site alternatives that would be co-located with the existing launch facility at Boca Chica, including the preferred alternative,” the document said.
Some people are arguing on various Internet sites that the Corps application only covers expansion for a second Boca Chica launch pad and is separate from the PEA document being prepared by the FAA. However, an expert in the subject who writes under the name ESG Hound said that is not so.
“The land covered in the Corps application covers all the stuff in the PEA, including support buildings and other site infrastructure. The two actions are intimately intertwined but go ahead in thinking this is some Elon Musk 4D Chess,” he tweeted.
You can read his full analysis of the Corps’ decision here.
SpaceX’s Boca Chica plans have been criticized by environmental groups that argue that it is inappropriate due to a number of endangered and threatened species that reside in the area. Even if the federal government approves the expansion and launches, it’s likely that environment would sue.
Others have said that the environmental assessment is insufficient, and that a more thorough and time-consuming environmental impact statement (EIS) is needed that could take years. An EIS was conducted before the FAA approved the Boca Chica site for up to 12 Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches annually. However, Super Heavy/Starship is a much larger booster that will have larger impacts on the surrounding wetlands.
122 responses to “U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Suspends SpaceX’s Application to Expand Boca Chica Launch Facility”
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I followed your link to the ESG Hound site. Nt exactly a reliable or unbiased source. The above quoted sentences are relevant in that ESG Hound loves anything that prevents progress. It might pay to think that this argument is about 17 acres of uninhabitable (without major work) swamp.
Of the requirements listed by the Corps, several should be none of their business. Alternate launch locations and co-locating production and operations are just a couple.
its about preserving the environment. thats worth fighting for
You mean the environment that has been already trashed by the battles fought there in two wars, the vacation homes, the vacation resort and all the folks driving all over the beach for decades, not to mention the hurricanes that regularly rearrange the landscape.
There is no environment to preserve there. It’s not like he is draining the wetlands on the massive King Ranch or destroying the massive Padre Island National Seashore.
Those are all great points. Quads vehicles do a lot of damage. Is SpaceX using tourist activities as part of its defense?
They should be, especially in terms of the risk to the endangered sea turtles from tourists driving on the beach. Incidentally I would not be surprised to see the population of endangered falcons increasing because of SpaceX as the roofs of those tall buildings, like the skyscrapers of cities, make good nesting sites.
Yeah, I read that Scientific American article too back in the 80’s.
As someone who used to do turtle rescue, I can hardly overstate the threat these vehicles pose to nesting. Granted the Boca Chica Beach does not get nearly as many nests (basically about 5-6 per season in recent years, at last check) as S. Padre Island does, it’s still enough that I’m astounded it’s allowed at all.
That doesn’t equate to an automatic pass for what SpaceX wants to do, but it’s a perplexing imbalance of concerns for the local ecology at work.
“The environment” is a one-size-fits-all smokescreen for militant Luddites and socialists. The animal and plant life are pretexts, not concerns.
My niece is doing undergrad studies in marine biology and has involved me some in sea turtle rescue and rehab projects. Having lived on the spacecoast for more than a decade, it was was a very eye opening experience to the challenges sea turtles face from people, wildlife and pet/feral domestic animals let alone vehicles on beaches.
When SaveRGV is simultaneously fighting against SpaceX operations out of fear they will impact the nesting of Kemp’s Ridley sea turtles and fighting to reduce the number of days closures of Boca Chica Beach keep people from driving their vehicles on the beach, it becomes obvious that the turtles are not their true concern.
It feels a bit like a “throw everything at the wall and see what sticks” approach.
There are a plethora of bird species everywhere on the Starbase property. In the daily NSF videos, one sees birds perched or in flight very frequently. Even when one does not see them, one hears them. Starbase, I think is a combination of bird-gentrified real estate and an always-open buffet.
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ThomasLMatula Robert G. Oler • 10 hours ago • edited
You mean the environment that has been already trashed by the battles fought there in two wars, the vacation homes, the vacation resort and all the folks driving all over the beach for decades, not to mention the hurricanes that regularly rearrange the landscape
all that is trivial to the damage spaceX is doing and can do with an explosion
A ecosystem adapted to the occasional hurricane is well suited to an occasional explosion. It would not change the makeup of its plant communities or bird species.
By contrast cattle grazing, no matter how well managed, does damage by cattle selecting some plants more often than others to eat, and there by wiping out the communities of insects, birds and other organisms that depend on them. It may look like the land is natural to you, but an ecologist would quickly see the difference between it and the original native environment.
By contrast cattle grazing, no matter how well managed, does by cattle selecting some plants more often than others to eat, and there by wiping out the communities of insects, birds and other organisms that depend on them
…
Only mom and pop meaning very small operators and family farms work that way. you cannot support large herds in that manner. free range grazing is not something that affects a field on the scale that it is done.
For instance on my farm, we rotate fields for grazing and in those fields are planted crops
So there is nothing of the natural ecosystem left since you plowed it under.
From drovers.com:
Many of us remember very well the slogan, “Cattle Free By ’93” that became popular with the environmental movement seeking to eliminate cattle grazing on public lands in the 1990s. To Western states ranchers with grazing on public lands, this movement was serious.
Robert G. Oler: “free range grazing is not something that affects a field on the scale that it is done.”
Center for Biological Diversity:
Doesn’t the Army have ditches to dig and fill back up? Nice job with Katrina guys. They put the drab in the olive.
Nah, there is a lot of great “environment” out there to fight for. This is just a $h1Th0l3.
The environment is in no danger. It’s about Luddite Greens getting their way and/or jamming up SpaceX.
There are laws to be followed, whether you or Elon think so or not.
Which makes perfect sense until one is dealing with groups that make it up as they go along with malice aforethought.
Looks like SpaceX has to accelerate the building of the Starship facilities at the Cape if it’s going to move forward.
As for Boca Chica, they should move on to the offshore launch platforms and redo their applications, applying for a new launch license and EIS to reflect that. Otherwise the environmentalists will just file lawsuit after lawsuit to delay it for many years as they did with nuclear energy, forcing SpaceX to abandon the poor folks in Brownsville who were being offered a new future of promise instead of the poverty they have endured for generations.
Indeed, radical environmentalists being what they are it wouldn’t surprise me if they try to shutdown Starship the Cape as well over some issue.
I agree, Boca Chica operations will be moving to Florida. It seems crazy to shut down or greatly curtail the Boca Chica operations over 17 acres, since there are thousands of unaffected acres all around the site. But that’s the legal environment we live in.
happy to be one of your radical environmentalist. I like clean air. Musk will shut down Starship himself when he has the first one blow up or do something strange. until then launch at the cape. but dont mess with Texas
If you were a radical environmentalist you wouldn’t be raising cattle. ?
It’s not the regulations as the solution is for SpaceX to just put together a good legal compliance team to fill out the paperwork in the proper format. It is the folks that abuse the court system to use it as an economic weapon like they did with nuclear power.
No matter what the FAA or Army Corps of Engineers decide, the environmentalists will be filing lawsuits using whatever endangering species they are able to identify as having ever approached with 10 miles of Boca Chica as an excuse.
cattle help the environment
we are at the point where a responsible agency, responsible to the people through the elected representatives are doing their statutory job
Elon could end all this; by doing what is right, by telling the truth, filling the correct plans/documents etc. he has the money to hire some of the best legal talent around…he could have made this thing pop
what happens after that might or might not be fodder for your angst…but I doubt it. the federal courts usually dont override regulator decisions done correctly
Elon just didnt want to do what is right, to follow the law. I dont like that.
yea, right…? Sorry, but the ranchers are next on the environmentalist hit list. Cattle ranchers are considered as being responsible for wiping out the bears, wolves, cougars and jaguars that used to roam Texas, predators that controlled the populations of deer and other grazers and in doing so changed the composition of the native plant communities along with birds that depended on them, making the artificial environment you now consider to be “natural”.
https://www.foodnavigator.c…
‘Cows are the new coal’: FAIRR and Ban Ki-moon urge G20 leaders to act on agricultural emissions
By Katy Askew
01-Jul-2021 – Last updated on 01-Jul-2021 at 15:58 GMT
and because of the change in water runoff the cattle have even destroy marine communities, as one study showed.
https://www.atlasobscura.co…
How Cows Destroyed an Entire Marine Ecosystem in California
A researcher’s quest to understand a mysterious mass extinction leads to cud-chewing culprits.
by Jack Tamisiea
June 21, 2021
Someone living in a glass house shouldn’t be throwing bricks.
lol
You won’t be laughing when they come after you with paperwork requiring you to document the CO2 and Methane emissions from your cattle ranch and show how you are going to mitigate them.
Prairie Chickens used to be very common along the Texas Coastal Plain, but cattle ranching has driven them to near extinction. I imagine your ancestors used to enjoy watching them on your ranch until the changes in the plant communities from grazing wiped them out.
that wont happen and it is not the same thing as a guy lying about what he was going to launch while he was thinking about launching something that is a small kilton weapon of explosives.
I’ve gone through two of these on the airport. pretty straight foward of course now the USN wants jet A tanks 🙂
Jet fuel tanks have the potential to do a lot of damage to ground water if they leak, not to mention the dangers from spills and possible explosions. Then there are all of the greenhouse gases released from its manufacturing and use. So how many endanger species are on your ranch that will be impacted?
this is the real funny part of the entire airport thing. The TANG uses the strip (sometimes) as a training strip for both their helicopters and helicopter support people to operate in “the wild”…so there was plan A …but the field really is under the perpetual stewardship for the sum of 2 dollars a year (oddly enough to be paid in 2 dollar US soverign notes…never understood why my GGrandfather did that except he loved 2 dollar bills)
so they wanted both a strip capable of it looks like F35 VTOL and jet fuel storage systems
Now here is the funny part. we found out this year that during WW2 there were avgas tanks buried and in use there. we always thought that all four pipes coming out of the ground were for the septic. which was put there and still works. but it turns out that one pipe (and what we thought was the septic vent) went to the fuel tank buried in concrete, 50 feet below the surface.
when the USN came out they came out with WW2 drawings (that we did not have) and well found it immediately. the survey done of it was that there was avgas or avgas residue it was full of water which when sampled (to the bottom) turned out to be clear of avgas or residue. the brass pipe down to it seems to be quite intact (as are the brass pipes on the septic and well. as best I know there has never been any gas in it since WW2…no one is alive from that era…but we have always carted gas out in the tanker truck. old mysteries 🙂
After 75 years you would expect any avgas to be long gone by now. So I take you are going to just replace the tanks.
the thing is in a sort of “cask” of concrete. there are it looks three thin layers of concrete above it and then a “lid” over the cask (like for a coffin) that it sits in. apparantly this is how they built them during WW2 to reduce the impact of both bombs and battleship shells. the only place I have seen this before is the HO HO (Houston houma) lines that are buried that way . but in long sections you actually can go into them and walk the line
they are going to do a pressure test and then the USN is going to decide what to do. their plan was to put an above ground tank like at an airport. we keep the gas for the planes in an older delivery truck. these documents were only found about 8 months ago. the TXDOT documents from the 50’s dont show the tank.
I suppose the environmental risks go away if the navy is paying for it. . Especially if the ranch has already killed off the local endangered species before it became unfashionable. BTW, how diverse and unspoiled is a cornfield, an orange grove, or a watermelon patch??
Elon never lied, he changed his plans. A Starship stack is not “a small kiloton weapon of explosives.”
Cattle farts are killing the planet! We’re all gonna die! Tomorrow, at 7 AM CDT!
You don’t like Elon. The law, which he has followed, has nothing to do with it.
Well, they’ll try, anyway.
Robert -you’ve got to be f*ing kidding.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
Baytown!
Baytown. but thanks to the federal government. you can see the horizon now. a long time ago not so much
Too bad Elon isn’t building a petroleum refinery I guess.
No smoke from them now under Bidenflation
I’m not radical and I don’t think Musk is going to shut down Starship, but I fully agree that we have the duty to be stewards of the environment. And not just as a duty/burden. Count me fully in as liking clean air, too.
In this case though, the situation is a matter of properly filling out the paperwork. I mean, yes it’s more than that; among other things, SpaceX has to develop mitigation plans to complete the application package, but this isn’t the end of the line. Could Starbase eventually be blocked? Yes, but if so, this isn’t it (or doesn’t have to be it). The application was merely insufficient and they have more work to do before the evaluation can be completed.
I will say that it looks like SpaceX could have better prepared for this, but building a major spaceport is a new thing for them and there was bound to be a learning curve
yes…but he has to fill out the paperwork why did he not do that? arrogance
I highly doubt Mr Musk personally reviews and signs every bit of paperwork that comes through SpaceX. That would be stupid.
SpaceX did fill out the paperwork. The Corps of Engineers just decided it needs to fill out more paperwork.
Yes, I have been a conservationist advocating for protecting nature long enough to remember when the anti-war movement invaded and took over groups like the Sierra Club and the World Wildlife Federation following “Earth Day”.
Their first efforts were to attack the nuclear power industry because of their irrational fear of anything nuclear forcing utilities to expand their use of coal, creating the surge of CO2 emissions that threatens the Earth’s climate today. The environmentalists attacking SpaceX have the same attitudes towards technology and are using the same strategies they used.
What folks like Robert do not understand, it’s not about Boca Chica, it is about stopping humans from expanding into space.
I get the water and soil concerns, but I’m curious how SpaceX’s activites there are going to affect the air?
I am not an environmental engineer
but I suspect its all the venting and the affect the venting has on the area…
Venting nitrogen and oxygen has a long history of destroying environments… oh wait, they ARE the environment.
We’ll be concerned about getting the oceans wet next.
There is also all of the methane that might be vented, almost as much as a small herd of cattle release into the atmosphere… Of course paving over parts of the wetlands there would offset it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/sci…
Methane in atmosphere hits new high, rising at fastest rate recorded, NOAA says
April 7, 2022, 3:56 PM CDT
By Evan Bush
“Methane has many sources. It is the primary component of natural gas, a byproduct of raising livestock like cows and a gas that’s released as organic matter decays in wetlands. “
I think it is the methane
Are they venting methane? If they are I very much doubt it is much, given the effort they have already gone to to capture the methane boiloff.
Perhaps you are just smelling the swamp gas.
No methane is vented at Starbase – except perhaps a bit from crashed prototypes. Any methane vent could too easily become a torch. In the early days of Starbase there was a flare stack where boil-off could be contollably burned. Since then, vapor recovery systems have been installed that just re-liquifiy the stuff and put it back in the tanks.
If so than there is likely a reduction of Methane overall since the acres of the swamp they paved over would no longer be venting Methane from the rotting vegetation. So it appears Starbase has less of an impact on global warming than your average Texas cattle ranch. ?
Super Snarky!
“except perhaps a bit from crashed prototypes”
If so, that bit is very small. The lion’s share of what was released in crashes was converted to water and carbon dioxide in a rapid exothermic rection.
Starbase is not doing anything to dirty the air. And all the “messing with TX” seems to be coming from non-Texans these days.
You mean like “owners” that live a continent or two away for instance?
“Musk will shut down Starship himself when he has the first one blow up…”
That ship sailed in September of 2020, and Musk didn’t cancel anything.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
Exploded Starships: 4
Starship Cancellations: 0
I obviously meant the large full up stack. the trump flunky about 2 miles away set off a bigger explosion when the fireworks last year set his house on fire and his armory blew up 🙂
It seems that what is dealt with in this application is an expansion of the existing site, which does not have to be necessary for the launch license, i.e. they could launch with what they already have there. If a mitigated FONSI were issued, they could still get permission to launch, while being denied any expansion. Some argue that one process is intimately related to the other, but it doesn’t have to be. B.C. could still exist as a sort of research and testing facility, as it has been stated by SpaceX lately, while the main operations move to the Cape. In fact, it is arguable that the Cape is actualy an alternative, since the two sites seem to serve different purposes, and they could also face issues if they try to expand at the Cape.
What seems to be granted is a lawsuit, should they get the BC launch license, but who says there’s going to be no lawsuits when they try to launch or expand at the Cape? Let’s wait until they actually try to do it.
It is hardly Holy Writ that SpaceX is going to be driven out of Starbase. I think the FAA will approve both spaceport and launch licenses. Fighting off subsequent nuisance litigation will be no novelty to SpaceX.
But in the event of an adverse ruling – especially if FSW is the obdurate party – perhaps the good people of Brownsville could make their preferences known in a fashion more familiar to leftists and simply go to the local office of the Fisheries & Wildlife Service and burn it to the ground in a “mostly peaceful” protest. If the protestors are all Hispanic, well, the regnant lefties have already said it’s okay for brown people to misbehave in this fashion. Perhaps Kamala Harris will even post their bail.
I suspect all this anti-SpaceX agitation by absentee “environmentalists” – in addition to the Biden regime’s open-borders policy – is what has the entire Rio Grande Valley rapidly turning from blue to red.
Early on, as an SLS supporter I called Boca a dirt pile—and now the same folks that did such a great job with Katrina think it’s Eden. They need to go back to digging ditches and filling them back up.
Maybe Kerry was right: my Dad always said any dumbass that couldn’t get a job anywhere else could always join the Army…McNamara’s Morons must be wearing brass by now…and it shows.
It has yet to be seen what will happen with the FAA re: orbital launches. This Army Corps of Engineers application is for roughly doubling the size of developed area, not for whether or not SpaceX can do orbital launches from the facilities already built and under construction.
But it is for the construction of additional launch and landing pads. So it would limit them to the facilities they have now.
…The overriding concern is that SpaceX eliminated alternative locations — Cape Canaveral in Florida and Vandenberg Space Force Base in California…
Yes. The federal government has decided that SX can only launch from federal government property. Case closed.
I just love living in a free country.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
another guy who has to be taught that the rules apply to him
So you’re comparing Musk to Putin?
in following the rules of accepted norms yes they both passed the matter of degree a long time ago
So I guess you won’t be applying to work at SpaceX or the Kremlin any time soon.
No I would not work at SpaceX and my oldest daughter is an F35 driver in Poland. she may be fighting soon…
I would not work at SpaceX. I dont know if I would have in my 20’s but I doubt it. Musk has made a mess of his personal life by being “uber driven” and he doesnt care, in fact expects others to have the same drive toward his ambition that he does…and doesnt care if it gets in the way of their family or not
I have been lucky enough to have two wives who love me and kids by each one. I gave up driving after a flattop when we had our first daughter because well I wanted her to know me and me to enjoy her growing up. thats the priority in my life. my family
OK I’ve been lucky to make some solid cash along the way and never really hurted for money…but I’ve had roles in organizations (charter Part 135 groups) that were run just like SpaceX is. the owners who made a ton of cash from the business were happy to drive themselves into the ground to make it; but expected their employees to do the same; and not for the same cash.
thats not me. I enjoy getting up in the morning, riding my bike or horse, watering the garden and being with my family 🙂
Must folks just take the simple road and just focus on making life good for their families and that is fine. But there are others who are willing to make the effort and sacrifice it takes to lead the effort to make the world a much better place for future generations. It is why the others are able to cruise through life successfully.
Where would your career be if folks like the Wright Brothers, Juan Trippe, Howard Hughes, William Boeing and many other “unpleasant” people had not created the modern aviation industry you enjoy.
Musk pays people well for the long hours, many of whom are young enough not to yet have families. But even those who do seem to manage – or they leave. No one at SpaceX is chained to a rowing bench.
You would not have worked at SpaceX had it existed when you were younger because you almost certainly would not have passed the hiring process – except possibly as one of Mr. Musk’s personal pilots. Your frequent assertions that you can’t see this or you can’t see that mark you out as someone of limited imagination and not given to questioning your own assumptions. That would make you a very poor fit for most jobs at SpaceX.
Would you hire a personal pilot in constant denial of reality??
Oh come on. There are rules and norms, and then there are rules and norms. What’s going on in Ukraine…
in international law is just what Elon is doing in BC flouting the law. now you and Tom and the rest of the gang “oh its only a small part” of the world. I am sure Vlad thinks that of Ukraine
No, what I see is that it’s the radical environmentalists who are being like Putin, attacking Elon Musk on false claims on how Boca Chica was some kind of unspoiled heaven for endangered species. Really no different than the false claims used by Putin to justify his invasion of Ukraine.
I read the PEA a single time and knew instantly that it was insanely inadequate. This has nothing to do with radical environmentalists. The Corps are sticklers for the rules but they’re not in the habit of explaining all the ways in which an applicant repeatedly didn’t do what they were required to by law.
FERC manages to crank out several controversial LNG permits every year under the same law so maybe…. SpaceX is just bad at this and thinks they’re above the law?
So how many nests of the piping plover will be impacted?
Local Plover populations have dropped by 50% since 2018, which was not predicted in 2015. So I’m going to go with “a lot”
So you are saying that the nests of the Piping Plover at Boca Chica are being destroyed by SpaceX?
Big whoop
Counsel assumes facts not in evidence. SpaceX is not “flouting the law” at Starbase.
It’s funny as Putin was seen as an environmentalist before the war, when Hollywood loved him…
https://www.theguardian.com…
Vladimir Putin and World Bank chief stage summit to save the tiger
Jonathan Watts
21 November 2010
“The Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, and the president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, were behind the four-day event, during which it is hoped that $350m (£220m) will be secured for tiger conservation.”
“There are appeals expected from celebrities including the actor Leonardo DiCaprio and the model Naomi Campbell.””
How about Joe and Hunter Biden? Should the rules apply to them?
Not at all, they were permitted and cleared to launch Falcons out of this facility. They should have been asking for more in the original EIS and saved themselves a lot of time and angst.
So what is your theory on why they are not being permitted and cleared to launch Starships out of this facility?
My Dad the lawyer who helped me file my opposition to the starship launch with the FAA says its “simply not doing the job” to get the permits. since he bills at 1000 an hour and is one of the best in town…I suspect he knows what he is talking about
Elon is like most rich people…he doesnt care about the law. he has the money to hire people to make it work for him; but he just thinks he can get his own way and goes along with that. The Corps stopped this because he simply didnt file what was needed.
…he just thinks he can get his own way…
I am seriously impressed that you know what Elon is thinking.
yes. his entire “statement of modern life” has been “I am special (rich saving the planet, mission from the creator whatever) so the rules that apply to everyone else, dont apply to me.
I dont like that
Interesting.
You don’t like Musk for a lot of reasons. But he has never said anything remotely like that. There are a lot of people who have said things like that – John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, pretty much any prominent lefty of the last 40 years.
The man goes on Twitter and tells the whole world every stupid thing he’s thinking.
Yeah. That’s Elon…pretty stupid. Not brilliant like you and me.
It’s a gift lefties seem to have.
SpaceX filed something. The Corps of Engineers now says it was inadequate in some undefined way. The Corps was frequently accused of arbitrariness back when the environmentalists were its foes. That doesn’t seem to be an issue now that the Corps has changed sides.
Because it’s a 5 kT equiv fuel air munition.
Yeah. That answer has got some legs. It’s kinda weird that the excuse they’re giving is that the proper forms weren’t filled out.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
If you were talking about a reasonable amount of paperwork, then yes. If it were a reasonable amount of paperwork it wouldn’t have been worth evading. What seems to be the issue here is massive amounts of open ended paperwork by agencies prodded by extremists that are looking for any excuse to block progress of any form.
When something is straightforward and honest in intent, the regulatory environment is not a problem. It is when regulations are weaponized by extremist groups that there is a problem. In this case the extremist groups include disgruntled competitors that can’t compete.
This is not about clean air or endangered species. It’s about ginning up a cause for publicity and profit. Somewhat like the “charitable” organizations showing pictures of starving kids instead of the mansion of its’ CEO. Grifters cashing in on misery, and grifters cashing in on environmental publicity.
If you were talking about a reasonable amount of paperwork, then yes. If it were a reasonable amount of paperwork it wouldn’t have been worth evading. What seems to be the issue here is massive amounts of open ended paperwork by agencies prodded by extremists that are looking for any excuse to block progress of any form
thats not true. thats the right wing lie. the paperwork is quite manageable and could have been done by any competent law firm in the Valley. Musk just didnt want to do it. he would rather look for an out after all he is saving the planet 🙂
Bingo, and it has the added bonus of having a billionaire to use as a villain as well. Even though I study how issue marketing works I find it amazing just how many folks like Robert are falling for the Elon Musk as villain nonsense they are pushing.
Elon Musk is simply an imperfect human working to make the society a better place through technology, one of thousands of such heroes that throughout history have helped to lift humanity out of the Stone Age.
Robert thought Bernie would make a good President and still thinks Biden is doing a good job. He’s exactly the “target market” for this sort of buncombe. The fact that he’s also dismissive of facts that don’t accord with his baseless prejudices is just gravy.
Yes, and no one is giving any answers to what should be a simple engineering question, basically the zone of exclusion needed to prevent third party damage from an explosion on launch.
If the exclusion zone includes too much third party risk the EIS, Army Corps of Engineer permits, wetlands or public comments are moot and were a waste of time as it is too hazardous to fly from the Boca Chica site. Only if the risk to third parties is minimal does the rest matter, so why is there no answer, with appropriate maps and analysis, on what is essentially the central question.
I suspect it’s because an actual answer to that question wouldn’t support all the Chicken Little-ing that has been ginned up about Starbase.
No, it isn’t.
The available evidence is that the environmentalists triggered this process by the FAA. Before then it appears the FAA was good with what SpaceX was doing.
ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS SPOTLIGHT INADEQUATE OVERSIGHT BY FAA OF SPACEX’S BOCA CHICA TESTING FACILITY, CALL FOR AN EIS
Date: July 8, 2020
From: States News Service
“In a letter sent to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), environmental groups are calling on the agency to require a new Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that fully details the impact of the SpaceX Boca Chica testing and launch site.
The groups, including Save RGV, Defenders of Wildlife, Frontera Audubon, Friends of Laguna Atascosa National Wildlife Refuge, the Center for Biological Diversity and the Lower Rio Grande Valley Sierra Club claim that recent disasters at the facility are a sign that the safety and environmental impact of SpaceX operations have not been adequately studied and disclosed to the public. The letter also lists numerous stipulations that SpaceX has failed to uphold and that the FAA has failed to enforce.”
the FAA was never good with what SpaceX was doing without a valid permit.
Your opinion which is not supported by any evidence as the FAA had numerous options to show such displeasure by not issuing approvals for the test launches and firings starting with the Hopper. Yet they did not do anything until the massive and powerful environmental lobby pushed the FAA into its actions.
BTW did you know that there was likely a FAA representative on the site for every test they did to make sure they were in compliance with the approvals issued? Rocket launches are handled a lot differently than rocket planes as they are a different technology,
SpaceX has a valid permit. The FAA wouldn’t have granted launch licenses for the Starship prototype launches otherwise.
The groups say the environmental assessment (EA) is insufficient given the change in the use of the site from what it was originally approved for in 2014. They believe that a new environmental impact statement (EIS) should be done. It’s a different, more involved and lengthy process.
The idea that FAA could simply approve orbital launches of the much larger Super Heavy/Starship rocket without any sort of further review, whether an EA or EIS, doesn’t really wash. Bigger rockets and footprint. They couldn’t just approve it based on an EIS for two very different boosters.
The groups also claim that SpaceX has simply ignored a number of stipulations in the original EIS put in place to limit the company’s impact on the site and access to the beach and wildlife refuge. This is actually backed up by FWS and NPS. If FAA goes ahead and approves launches from the site and there’s no mechanism for or will to enforce restrictions, then efforts to protect the area will fail.
SpaceX has not been refused permission to launch full Starhip stacks from Starbase. Formal permission just hasn’t been granted yet. I think it will be.
An EIS was conducted before the FAA approved the Boca Chica site for up to 12 Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches annually. However, Super Heavy/Starship is a much larger booster that will have larger impacts on the surrounding wetlands.”
the operative lines
From what? And on what basis is such a bald declaration made?
Blah blah. I have it on excellent authority that the fundamental issue with the Corps is old news and nothing to be concerned about. It evidently just happened to leak out after the review’s (temporary) suspension. So you can calm down now.
Well, they need not mention fireballs. They could argue that early landing attempts might damage the chopsticks or other parts of the tower (which could probably happen, even without fireballs) so they need to preserve the KSC facilities for launches only, since they stack the Starship with the chopsticks, fuel it with the QD arm, etc.
B1 Rick Perry is the thud you are talking about although Texas Govs of this century have been something specially stupid.
Yeah I think you nailed it in far better prose and “nicely pointing out” the box Musk has, to paraphrase “made himself”. Now the FAA and the Corps and a few other folks who said “woooow pard” are convienant whipping boys for people who really want to believe Musk. I do as well, I have pushed for a space economy/civilization of humans most of my adult life…but the sad thing about it is Musk had/has the money to do it right. he could have been honest with the folks as to what BC was going to do…He could have mitigated the risk of the “chopsticks” landing by doing some subscale testing where blowups are cheaper…
but he didnt. so now it is what it is.
as an aside. I have no idea what his current development plan is costing him; but its a lot of money and it seems as if he could have thought this one out a bit better. oh well as you say success was oneo fht epossible outcomes
anyway well said. good morning. RGO
The Super Boosters landing will be nearly out of fuel, so there won’t be much energy for an explosion if the chopsticks don’t work. Just look at how little damage was done to the barges during the period they were learning to land the Falcon 9.