Oh the Places You Will Go….
Interplanetary Transport System at Jupiter. (Credit: SpaceX)
Elon Musk wants to take SpaceX’s Interplanetary Transport System well beyond Mars, which will keep animators employed until some distant time when he can actually do so.
Interplanetary Transport System at Saturn. (Credit: SpaceX)
Interplanetary Transport System at Europa. (Credit: SpaceX)
Interplanetary Transport System at Enceladus. (Credit: SpaceX)
61 responses to “Oh the Places You Will Go….”
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Love that image of astronauts walking around the base of ITS on Europa with their little flashlights.
Yep, nice flat polished surface – not a ridgy broken glacier from hell. Also, wouldn’t the landing engines melt the very surface you’re trying to touchdown on?.
Presumably only a small amount would melt during the landing, which would likely near instantly refreeze or sublimate into space. Not like there’s really any dangers of it being a significant issue given the ITS would be landing on ice 15 km thick.
“…landing on ice 15 km thick.”
But if you’re enough to find a flat area, it would nice if it stayed flat, so that the ship didn’t topple over. You’re point about instantly refreezing is well taken though. However, all in all, I’d rather land on rock.
That far out and that cold, water ice is very rock like.
But could still be potentially reshaped (i.e. briefly melted) by rocket engines in the exact spot that you’re trying to land….may be I am worrying too much, but it bothers me….I can’t help myself.
Look at the ground under where the Lunar Module descent engine fired. It appears in several pictures from the astronauts.
It’s only fair to give them a little light to work with in their final hours of life before their rapid death by radiation poisoning thanks to the 500-600 rem that Europa’s surface receives from Jupiter’s electromagnetic field.
(In all seriousness, Musk could still send a crew in this to Callisto, at least.)
Getting fed up with your snark when it comes to all things SpaceX. Just doesn’t feel very professional.
Pity poor Sir Richard Branson, this makes SpaceshipTwo look like a kit built airplane from someone’s basement compared to a Boeing 747.
Why pay $250,000 for a short hop into space when you are able to vacation on Mars for only $200,000 instead?
Yes but Spaceship Two exists whereas the BFR and transporter are just projected projects that he wants someone to finance, another words you via taxes.
This just in. Ambitious project to better humanity costs money! Let’s build fighter jets instead. Because they are totally for free.
Non sequiter
Sigh. You mean non sequitur.
Well spotted, go to the top of the class.
The question is how much? The engines are already being tested and he seems to be working on the tanks. How much would it be? A few billion?
Around ten billion according to Musk.
Not bad, about the price of a couple off shore oil rigs and we have the resources of the Solar System within our reach.
Actually that is less than to build the U.S.S. John F. Kennedy (CVN 79).
https://news.usni.org/2015/…
“The cost estimates for Kennedy have also increased since 2008 to more than $11 billion with Congress and the Navy currently at odds over the the ultimate size of a legislatively mandated cost-cap for the construction of the carrier.”
But it would wipe all all the SLS jobs in the Congress Critter NASA Districts, so it would be a no go for NASA.
Musk appears to have a cunning plan. He mentioned that they could possibly build some of the really large stuff at Michoud and so on. Basically reusing the industrial base of the Apollo and Shuttle era.
More like a backhanded compliment to the SLS folks. Michoud is currently being used to fabricate SLS components.
Yes, he is sounding like a NASA contractor playing to the Congress Critters. Fund us and we will bring jobs to your district to ensure your re-election 🙂
Luke Luke!!!!
Beware of the dark side!!!
Where do you think most of SpaceX’s money has come from?
We have two EELVs and Falcon. I don’t see SLS dying. Hell, SLS my merge with this program. I don’t like the use of a lot of composites. We’ve done this one.
Seems to me ITS has a good start on an engine, and an organization actually experienced in spacefight.
“SpaceshipTwo exists” is a bit of a stretch, I’d say. There’s an airframe. Heck, I’m not gonna even bother getting into the whole thing. It’s never flown in space and the engine development has been a mess. They’ve built something and called it a spaceship, but that doesn’t mean it’s a spaceship.
I wish Branson luck though — he’s certainly put enough work and endurance into it. However, I think it likely that even if he gets it going, a window of opportunity has passed.
Agreed, I was merely highlighting the considerable difference between an existing (though un-flown) vehicle and an unfunded project (no matter how noble and I wish it to succeed).
How is it unfunded? Musk said quite firmly that all of his money is for this project. He owns a third of Tesla, Tesla is valued at 30 billion, he could sell those shares if he had to.
But why would he have to? The number of people who see this as feasible is only going to grow. Since the cost is quite low by spaceflight standards (and SLS serves to emphasize the difference), partnering with Musk on this will be attractive for some.
There are lots of risks to this, especially technical and legal ones, but funding is not among them.
Do you really think he has gone over to the darkside and become (que the Sith Lord music…) a “NASA contractor”? 🙂
at the rate things are moving, there is a good chance that BFR will be ready BEFORE SS2 is ready.
“Why pay $250,000 for a short hop into space when you are able to vacation on Mars for only $200,000 instead?”
You mean to live with a good chance of death before you get there (per Elon “I an’t ridin’ that thing” Musk)?
Then just take it to a Bigelow mega orbital resort for a luxury vacation. Since you won’t need the refueling flight it would probably only cost $100,000.
Probably a lot less than that.
I think the idea is that those going to Mars would be going for a lot longer than just a vacation. A return ticket might be a lot more expensive.
I’m sorry. It’s snarky but true. The radiation environment around these planets make human missions difficult. I covered the Juno arrival at Mars. All the spacecraft’s electronics are in a titanium box to keep them from being fried. Juno itself has a limited lifetime due to the radiation around Jupiter.
Getting this thing to land on Europa is difficult. The terrain is jumbled. And you risk burning through the ice just landing on it.
These are nice visions. But, these missions are way way in the future. It’s not even clear where the money will come from to build the ITS, much less set up a colony on Mars.
All of this is true, of course. Apart from the politics of it, these are engineering problems though. And thankfully SpaceX is a very engineering-driven organization. The challenges these utopian visions of the ITS will be forcing may certainly seem ludicrous. But Spacex has proven to be capable of successfully attacking engineering problems that are truly formidable and which were basically deemed un-doable. They are gobbling up the best talent they can find and have them hack away at the problems. Seems to be working rather well so far. (I expect the RUDs to go away when the F9 architecture stabilizes.)
As for the capital needed, the truth is there are individuals wealthy enough to finance this out of their pockets, then there’s Musk’s “Kickstarter” idea. Add to this government funds for transportation services to Mars (and more) and you realize that this is not impossible. At least as long Musk is alive and drives his idea forward. He’s an engineer and a business man and he’s certainly not stupid.
Contrast this with VG who are the pure opposite of an engineering-driven culture and have achieved almost nothing compared to SPX in a similar time frame.
What matters more than the vision is the progress being made towards that vision. SpaceX is actually making progress. Falcon 9’s first stage lands like MCT’s stages will land. The Raptor development engine has been fired on a test stand. A development composite tank has been built. These are small steps towards a fully reusable TSTO transportation system which will eventually, hopefully, be able to land on other planetary bodies in our solar system.
Very much appreciate a break from breathless hype and kool-aid. SpaceX is doing great things, and pushing the envelope in both actual technological accomplishments and in shifting the visions for the future.
However, informed dialogue and coverage about the many remaining hard challenges is sorely lacking. Snark will probably not exactly spark this dialogue, but at least provides some counterbalance.
As a point of measure, background radiation on Europa is the equiv of a fallout plume close to a nuclear blast, just hours after the blast. Attempt no landings there except with systems rated by The Strategic Air Command.
I agree. Unless is a non-crew mission in a ship that has been harded for the high radiation. But you still have the problem with the ice, which is why it would be smarter to drop small landers from orbit using an airbag system or even the “sky cable” the Curiosity rover used.
This is just eye candy for NASA.
The radiation environment around these planets make human missions difficult.
On Europa, it would basically be impossible. Death within hours on the surface.
Callisto? Sure. Ganymede? Doubtful.
Saturn’s moons are another story, fortunately.
why do you consider it snarky?
I think that he has some good points.
For example, with 150+ tonnes launch system, we can send a massive number of sats to Mars, Jupiter, Nuptune, etc.
The real question is, what is the launch costs of this?
If this is say .5B, and they can send a number of sats from multiple nations to say Jupiter, well, that would be something.
This has real potential to open up the solar system for all nations.
Lots of serious spaceman web sites and blogs out there. I find Doug’s writing a refreshing and entertaining reality check.
Yes, he in no simple “cheerleader” like the others. He does his research.
The one place he is missing is it’s most practical and important destination, the Moon.
Too boring for Elon perhaps?, or may be he’s worried about making methane to refuel. Mind you, surely you could get to lunar surface and back on one tank full?….as long as you drive carefully that is.
Or preposition methane on the Moon at that low cost with the LOX coming from local resources.
Moon does not have an atmosphere for aerocapturing, so you have to pay some propellant for full propulsive landing.
Also, as you said methane production is a bigger problem.
In the end though, if you remove the transit problem Mars is an INFINITELY better location to make a full-fledged colony. Some of the problems with Moon Colonization:
1. Day/night cycles.
2. Abundance of volatile elements.
3. Lower gravity.
4. No atmosphere.
5. Moon dust.
Adding to that..
The lack of a substantial atmosphere for insulation on the Moon results in temperature extremes and makes the Moon’s surface conditions somewhat like a deep space vacuum.
When the Moon passes through the magnetotail of the Earth, the plasma sheet whips across its surface. Electrons crash into the Moon and are released again by UV photons on the day side but build up voltages on the dark side. This causes a negative charge build up from −200 V to −1000 V.
The lack of an atmosphere increases the chances of the colony being hit by meteors. Even small pebbles and dust (micrometeoroids) have the potential to damage or destroy insufficiently protected structures.
Having an atmosphere gives you the opportunity to harvest and utilize it for your colony. For the Mars example, the atmosphere is rich in CO2, Argon and Nitrogen.
The Mars atmosphere is thick enough to protect crops grown on the surface from solar flares. Therefore, thin-walled inflatable plastic greenhouses protected by unpressurized UV-resistant hard-plastic shield domes can be used to rapidly create cropland on the surface after soil preparation (Mars soil has perchlorates and a very basic surface, which you have to fix before starting your Marsdew Valley. It is doable though).
Lastly, it is much easier long term to terraform a planet that has an existing atmosphere, than introduce an atmosphere to a small barren moon.
Incidentally, what Musk is trying to do is to remove the transit problem.
Agreed, really not much of a lunar fan myself – nasty hot/cold place with no atmosphere and sharp sticky regolith. I’d rather see revolving space stations than a lunar base. Leave the Moon to the mining companies of the distant future. The Martian atmosphere may be thin, but at low altitude locations it’s thick enough to protect from cosmic radiation.
“Moon does not have an atmosphere for aerocapturing, so you have to pay some propellant for full propulsive landing.”
Yeah, but BFS is not going to take the lowest energy route to Mars and will use a fair amount of fuel in retro-propulsion and landing. Could be that BFS does have the dV for a lunar mission for those that find the idea of a lunar base compelling. I’ve made the argument several times hereabouts that the Moon is not a suitable test-bed for Mars, and don’t get me started on mining for lunar water in permanently dark cryogenically cold carters. There’s always plenty that manage to convince themselves, for one reason or another, that the Moon is a plausible early target for settlement. Although, I’m not much interested in the Moon, I suppose the thought of any destination is somewhat exciting.
No reason it can’t go there, too, if someone is willing to pay SpaceX for it.
Very pretty, been producing CGI/Paintings like this from the 50’s and we still are but actually building/affording it is another matter. We will see.
So anything else of note happen at IAC or is it all just E3-spacex-edition?
I’m not there. Relying on Tweets and news posts. Not feeling that well yesterday, so this is all I could do.
Wishing you a quick recovery to good health!
Something about don’t drink the water…
A pity – I think every one of us would rather you had been asking questions of Musk at the Q&A than the . . . people that actually got the microphone.
Better yet of course would be a one-on-one interview with him. Assuming he’s giving those out.
I’ll have a hell of a lot to dream about the next thirty years. And that’s enough for me. So no disappointment here as reality kicks in.
I’m doubtful only 1/4 megawatt is enough power for a interplanetary spaceship at 1 AU. There’s no way a 1/4 MW @ 1AU solar array is going to deliver enough power at Jupiter and beyond. You need a multi megawatt-e reactor, and there’s no room for that in this design. The cooling arrays would be bigger than the proposed solar array fan.
Handwave something about high efficiency electrics, superconductors…
I’m thinking basics like heat in vs heat out and the need to keep the crew close to 290 K. Out at Jupiter that gets REALLY hard as that heat in term is 1/25th ish of what is at Earth’s 1 AU. And that 2.7 K sky just loves to act a a great radiative heat sink.
One word. Plastics.
Seriously, I donno man. But by the time anyone is thinking about sending great big spaceships past Mars, we will probably have materials and technologies for it.
* Amid the questions from the audience, which included self-promotional goofballs and awe-struck fanboys, a woman from Russia got applause by griping that SpaceX doesn’t hire people from outside the United States. “You are going interplanetary,” she said. “When will you go international?” *
http://www.popularmechanics…